Reply to William Finck’s, et al, Round Earth Roundtable Discussion

     As a Christian Identity adherent, who has and is studying the issue of whether the Earth is a sphere spinning around its axis at over 1000 mph at the equator and spinning around the sun at over 67,000 mph,[1] I took exception to the ranting and raving I heard directed towards me and others like myself, found on the podcast titled, “Round Earth Roundtable,” at Christogenea.org which can be heard here.   http://christogenea.org/podcasts/round-earth-roundtable.

     Ironically, Finck uses a CGI of the round Earth put forth as an authentic image of the globe NASA want us to believe is the Earth. Not too difficult to fool Finck it seems.

     Disagreeing with much of what Mr. Finck, and other participants of the “round table discussion” said during this podcast, I find it necessary to reply to some of the statements made during the discussion for several reasons, reasons which will be discussed throughout this missive.

          On the site where the podcast is available, are the statements:

          “Is our planet Earth flat? Probably not.”
          “Should Identity Christians care if the Earth is flat? Probably not.”

          Probably not? Why is Finck hedging here? Is the Earth flat or isn’t it? Should we Identity Christians care if the Earth is flat? Again, he uses the word “probably.” Well, what is it? Probably not, maybe or yes we should?

          “Identity Christians should keep themselves above and away from all of the fringe conspiracy theories that discredit our cause, distract us from what we should be doing, and drive people away from our core message, which is indeed true.”

     Apparently, it is Finck who determines what is and what is not a “fringe conspiracy theory” that the rest of us should “keep ourselves above and away from.” As for me, I am not going to let Finck dictate to me what I can or cannot study. Neither am I going to let Finck decide for me what I should or should not be doing.

          Here’s a written portion of Finck’s opinion about what and what does not have a place in Christian Identity found in his opening remarks:

“First, I want to talk about an issue that has come into Christian Identity circles …. and this issue has no place at all in Christian Identity: because no matter what the shape of the earth is, it has absolutely no bearing on the fate of our people. It has absolutely no bearing as to what is happening to Christians, and when I say Christians, I mean White Israelite Christians, on what is happening to Christians in the world today. It doesn’t matter if the earth is round, flat, square, if it looks like a Rubic’s Cube, if it looks like a baseball bat, IT DOES NOT MATTER. There are some things that Identity Christians, some arguments, some disputes,  that are so stupid, and irrelevant, and disconnected to our reality, CI adherents should not get involved in them at all. And when the mainstream everyday people see you as a freaking quack, you’re never going to get the important components of your message across to them. We don’t give a damn if the earth is a pancake, a Petri  dish, a basketball, We don’t care. If we want to get the truth of our Christian Identity message over to people, we should stay away from the quackery.” 

     According to Finck, if “mainstream everyday people see you as a freaking quack,” we are never going to get the important aspects of our (Christian Identity) message across to them. Apparently, it is Finck’s opinion, (and it is important to note that it is nothing more than Finck’s opinion), that Christian Identity adherents, if we want to effectively get our message of racial Israelite Identity, as found in Scripture, out to everyday people, we should avoid being seen as “quacks” involved in “quackery.”

     Technically, quackery is defined as “the methods and treatments used by unskillful doctors or by people who pretend to be doctors.”[2] So, why Finck used the words “quack” and “quackery” to describe those of us interested in ascertaining the truth of the Earth Yahweh created for us to live upon, escapes me. Nevertheless, the point he seems to be trying to make is, we should avoid appearing as “quacks,” or “conspiracy theorists,” or “nut cases” to “everyday people” if we hope to reach them with our message.

     Finck says we should appear to “mainstream everyday people” to be like they are, we should appear to others to be normal people who don’t involve ourselves at all in “stupid, and “irrelevant” issues “disconnected with our reality,” in order to get the Christian Identify message across to these same “mainstream everyday people.”

     Off the top of my head I can think of several issues we Identity Christians should then, using Finck’s “logic,” avoid at all costs if we do not want to be considered “quacks” by “mainstream everyday people:” Adolph Hitler and the “evil Nazis;” the holocaust hoax; the fact Israel pulled off 9/11, to name just a few. In the hopes of avoiding being labeled as “conspiracy theorists,” “tin foil hat wearers,” “nut cases” “lunatics” or “quacks,” shouldn’t we avoid being involved in any way with these issues too?

     I know for a fact that I am considered by many “mainstream everyday people,” to be a “quack” for my speaking the truth about these named “Conspiracy Theories,” and yet I never once thought I should avoid speaking the truth about any subject whatsoever for fear of what others might think of me. Frankly, I don’t care what others think of me. I’m going to speak the truth, in love,  about any subject I think Yahweh wants me to speak about, including a stationary non-spherical Earth, despite William Finck’s opinion to the contrary.

          That said, there is a way, a means by which these subjects can be brought up with “mainstream everyday people.” One of those means is to start out by showing concern for the welfare and wellbeing of those we are trying to reach with our message. By doing so, others tend to be more open to our ideas and opinions once they get to know us and know we genuinely care about and for them. After all, it is first and foremost Christian Identity.

          Having had significant personal interaction with Finck over a period of several months, I can attest to the fact Finck lacks even basic concern for others or their opinions. All one has to do is express an opinion that even slightly differs with his, and you’re immediately placed on Finck’s “Ass Hat Clown List,” which from all appearances, appears to be quite long. If your opinion differs with his, even slightly, your opinion is not only wrong, you’re a “clown,” and your opinion, because it differs from his, lacks any merit whatsoever.

          The truth of this observation can be seen in his response to flat Earthers: nothing they say has any merit? Every single problem spherical Earth deniers point out concerning the globe theory we’ve been presented, unchallenged, all our lives, are without merit? After several months and hundreds of hours studying the spinning spherical Earth theory I accepted, unchallenged, all my life, I find this position not only ridiculous, but contrary to Scripture.  

     “Prove all things, hold fast to that which is good.”[3] Prove “all things,” not just those things that “mainstream everyday people” find acceptable, or that William Finck thinks we should not involve ourselves with.

     “You shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free.”[4] Not some of the truth, but “the truth,” sets us free. Sets us free from what? Certainly knowing the truth sets us free from what others think of us because of our opinion about certain subjects, including the shape of the Earth Yahweh created.

          To even begin to delve into many “components of Christian Identity,” to use Finck’s terms, requires an open objective mind and critical thinking skills. Finck, in my view, has prematurely answered a selected list of the weakest arguments from a very limited number of spherical spinning Earth deniers, (really just a single “flat earther” - Dubay), before he has studied the matter sufficiently to develop an intelligent position supported by facts, as is clearly evident in his statements found in the roundtable discussion he hosted.   This is folly and shame.[5]

          Should not Finck exhibit the very same unbiased open-mindedness in his approach to the flat earth subject that he expects others to use in their examination of the doctrines of Christian racial identity, Adolph Hitler, the holocaust, etc?

          One does not have to accept every single teaching of every single Christian racial identity teacher or historical revisionist. One should and must examine all things taught by these teachers, use their God given critical thinking skills to vet out what is contrary, in their view, to Scripture, and hold onto what they prove for and to themselves, to be true. This includes William Finck’s teaching. Finck, in my view, is wrong in many of his views, the spinning, rotating spherical Earth being just one of many. Does that mean I reject everything Finck espouses? No.

          The idiom, “Throwing the baby out with the bath water” comes to mind.

          Same principle applies to teaching concerning the shape of the Earth. Do I agree with everything everyone who has taught me concerning the Earth? No. My study of the subject showed me there are many flaws and problems with the spinning rotating spherical Earth position. That has led me to question what I thought I knew about the subject, just like I did when I studied other “conspiracy theories” like the assassination of JFK, the moon landing, the “evil Nazis,” Adolph Hitler, WWII, the alleged holocaust, 9/11, etc.

          Finck isn’t suggesting that we’ve been lied to about all those other “conspiracy theories,” by the Jewish controlled media, but we were told the truth concerning the Earth we live on, is he?

          Something more going on here than meets the eye.

         One biblical subject found in Genesis  1 has always been a mystery to me: how does the firmament mentioned in verse 6 fit in with the Earth as a spinning globe theory? In my opinion, the spinning rotating Earth theory does not work with a firmament. However, in the stationary flat Earth model, the firmament makes perfect sense.

          Keep in mind, that up until 500 years ago, this was the model accepted by all “mainstream everyday people,” many of whom were very scientific, better educated and more intelligent in many ways than many of the so-called Scientists, the High Priests of the Religion of Science, of our day. For one thing, they possessed common sense, something quite lacking in many people I know today. Does it feel to you like you're spinning around at several hundred miles per hour? Does the moon look like its 242,000 miles away? The Science Priests call what they believe Science and the followers of Science believe what they are told. That is not Science; that is faith, a belief system of the New Religion of the Age, Science.

          Finck then goes on to attack Eric Dubay and his PDF “200 Proofs the Earth is Not a Spinning Ball,” labeling Dubay a “race mixer,” a plausible (possible?) Jew, a straight clown and a liar.” I’m not going to defend Dubay, as I have had my run-in with him, being banned almost immediately from his forum, The International Flat Earth Research Society, for attempting to share the truth of Scripture related to the creation of the Earth.

          Further, I too discovered the book Finck mentions written by Carpenter.[6]  

          However, Finck is mistaken when he states, “From what I can see, Carpenter is not even mentioned on Dubay’s website.” Carpenter’s book is mentioned here: http://ifers.boards.net/thread/28/100-proofs-earth-globe-ebook in a post dated Mar 3, 2015.

          Eric Dubay isn’t the only person promoting flat Earth. If one wants to attack the merits of the non-spinning, non-rotating spherical Earth deniers' ideas, why not chose those who have a less anti-Christian position like Jeran of Jeranism? Or the pro-Christian, pro-Scriptural  positions of Rob Skiba?

          Finck, attacking the “race-mixing possible Jew” Dubay and his “200 Proofs” as if his “proofs” are identical to all other flat Earther’s views, is disingenuous. Other proponents of the stationary level Earth theory have several if not dozens of legitimate arguments. Why didn’t Finck, et al, examine those other more relative and stronger points? Is it because Finck, et al, have already made up their closed minds? Hypocritical, is it not? 

          Finck then proceeds to attack Ernest Pierce, whom he refers to as “a supposed Christian Identity so-called pastor, the clown just showed up a couple of years ago,”  who has made this “flat-Earth drivel” one of the centerpieces of his so-called ministry, which, in Finck’s opinion, all it does is discredit “real Identity Christians.”

          I know nothing of Ernest Pierce, and am not here to defend him, but what if the flat Earth, with a firmament, is not “drivel,” as Finck claims? What if it turns out we don’t live on a spinning spherical heliocentric globe? What if, Yahweh forbid, Finck is wrong? Is Ernest Pierce still a “so-called pastor clown with a so-called ministry?”

          Or is it Finck who is the clown with a so-called ministry?

          As stated above, all one has to do is express an opinion that differs from Finck’s dogma, and one is a “clown,” a “lunatic” a “quack,” or worse.

          Don Spears is the next victim of Finck’s junkyard dog like attack. He refers to Spears as “that Baptist ass-clown from south Alabama, who’s claiming to be an Identity Christian, and he’s really just fooling himself,” who, because of his “big ego and bad eyesight,”   was prevented from doing his own video podcast on the subject of the flat Earth, and instead hooked up with Mark Sargent, whom Finck claims, “is a Jew who has infiltrated and is trying to co-opt the so-called flat Earth movement for his own design.”

          Although one may disagree with Don Spear’s King James Only position, as I do, does that entitle one to publicly attack him as a “Baptist ass-clown from south Alabama, who’s claiming to be an Identity Christian, and he’s really just fooling himself,” and having a “big ego and bad eyesight” for reasons he had an interview with the alleged Jew, Mark Sargent? How is Finck’s typical attack-dog approach going help in reaching “mainstream everyday people” with the Christian Identity message, that Finck himself seems so concerned about?

          Starting at about six minutes in, Finck continues his pro-spinning rotating heliocentric spherical Earth and anti-stationary flat geocentric Earth firmament encased rant with many unsubstantiated claims. For example, this “Mark Sargent character, who is a Jew, has “infiltrated the flat Earth movement and is trying to co-opt the flat Earth movement for his own designs.”

          What evidence does Finck give in support of this allegation? Finck certainly does not provide any evidence for such an opinion, and that is all it is, his opinion. And this is just my opinion; because of his big ego, Finck believes his opinions are more valid than anyone else’s opinion on this subject and many other subjects, subjects he knows little about.

          Finck continues giving his opinion: “One problem with some of these flat Earthers is this: “They latch onto many so-called conspiracy theories, which actually have credibility and they add ridiculous flat Earth and other equally ridiculous so-called conspiracies to them, which simply discredit everything  they purport to profess. It is very plausible that they are doing this on purpose, so that, by associating  flat Earthers with holocaust revisionists, or those who are aware of and try to spread information about Jewish media control or about Christian Identity …. or about those who doubt the existence of dinosaurs or evolution or anything else, are thereby seen as flat Earthers, lunatics, to be discredited in the eyes of the general public.”

          As for sharing flat Earth theory to the general public, I have found, through personal experience, unlike Finck, it is actually easier to discuss the opposing theories regarding the Earth, than it is to even bring up the subject of the holocaust, because when one does bring up the holocaust, the general public has been trained, (by the very same Jewish controlled media Finck refers to), to immediately label you as an “anti-semite,” a "holocaust denier,: "hateful,"  or,  and this may be the worst of all,  a “Nazi.”

          I find it much easier to have a discussion with friends and acquaintances about the Earth and whether it is spinning or stationary, flat or a sphere, simply because when discussing these subjects, one can point out anomalies existing right in their world that gets them questioning their beliefs. And many, many more people are interested in the physical world around them affecting them daily, than they are about something, like the holocaust, that did - or didn’t - happen to the Jews over 70 years and they see as having no affect on them whatsoever.

          Then, once they start questioning the view of the world they are standing on, their eyes and minds are more open to the idea that they have been lied to about many other things, including the true identity of the Israelites in Scripture and even the so-called holocaust. From this vantage point, it is easier to segue into “components” of Christian Identity doctrine, and or the truth of other so-called “conspiracy theories.”  

          From personal experience, the truth of the matter is exactly the opposite of Finck’s opinion.

          “Christian Identists who promote flat earth, (that includes me) actually discredit Christian Identity; they think they are smart, but they are actually idiots.”

          There it is again: if you don’t believe EXACTLY like I do, you discredit Christian Identity and are an “idiot.”  If I am not mistaken, Finck just called me and those who think like I do regarding the non-spinning, non-rotating stationary flat Earth, idiots.

          The stationary flat Earth covered by a firmament is arguably the “Mother of all conspiracy theories.” If someone should start out by coming to the correct knowledge of this “Mother conspiracy theory,” how is calling them "quacks," "lunatics" and "idiots" going to endear them to the message of the lesser “conspiracy theories,” like the Christian racial Identity message or the fact that Jesus was not a Jew?

          7:40 seconds into the podcast Finck states: “Eric Dubay is an absolute liar.” He then goes on to offer what he believes is evidence in support of his claim that Dubay lied and deceived others by responding to Dubay’s item #45. That “evidence” is the fact, that only took Finck “30 seconds” to discover, is that “Quantas Airways has a direct flight from Perth, Australia to Johannesburg, South Africa that is 11 hours and 30 minutes. You’ll find that South African Airlines has a direct flight that is 11 hours 30 minutes.” Well, if Finck would have spent more than 30 seconds investigating the subject, he might have discovered the actual truth of the matter.

          If Finck would have spent just a little more time examining this issue, like I did, he may have discovered those flights quite likely exist only on websites and not in reality.

          Did Finck actually book a flight on those two airlines that say they have these flights? Can one actually take those flights, or are they merely listed to make people believe they can fly around the spherical Earth on a direct flight? Why would an airline, if they could actually fly directly between those two cities in 11 hours and 30 minutes, have the option of flying between the two cities on a fight that takes twice as long, consumes twice as much fuel and, quite likely, is more  expensive? Why in the spherical spinning world would a passenger choose the more expensive longer flight, 10 hours longer, over the less expensive flight of shorter duration?

          Does that make any business sense to you, for the airline or the passengers?  

          Did Finck take the time to find out if anyone else has actually taken those flights? With all the current attention given to the flat - globe Earth debate taking place, quite likely, if anyone has indeed taken those flights, one of the passengers or crew would have posted some information by now on the internet as to their validity? How does he know those flights are, in reality, actual flights? The answer is, of course, he did not research the matter fully and therefore does not know for a certainty that those flights actually take place. To use Finck’s words, “Do those listed flights actually exist? Probably not.”

          In my view, that is pretty unstable grounds upon which to call someone a liar and a deceiver, but then again, Finck is quick to condemn anyone who disagrees with him.

          One may also notice, rather than suggest that others take a look at Dubay’s “200 Proofs” or even Carpenter's "100 Proofs" and decide for themselves the merits or demerits of those proofs, the listener is simply expected to take Finck’s word that the entire subject is “quackery” and anyone who entertains the idea we live on a flat stationary Earth is a “quack” and an “idiot.” Finck has spoken and there is nothing else to know about the subject.         

          At about 16 minutes in, another unidentified speaker starts offering “proof” in rebuttal to some of Eric Dubay’s “200 Proofs.” I think it best to postpone any more of a Reply, until Part Two.

         Meanwhile, I'll be recovering from Finck calling me a "quack" and an "idiot." Ha.

---

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth's_orbit

[2] http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/quackery

[3] I Thes. 5:21.

[4] John 8:32.

[5] Proverbs 18:13.

[6] http://ifers.boards.net/thread/28/100-proofs-earth-globe-ebook